When I posted GOD TALK 7 on September 5th, I unknowingly stepped on a hornet. A person identifying himself as being with Clubschadenfreude commented on my post. I responded briefly, but upon further reflection I decided to answer the criticisms more fully.
First, what is Clubschadenfreude? I honestly do not know. The German word schadenfreude translates as “malicious joy,” but I could find only a few references to such a club or organization on the internet. It appears that it may be a loose-knit association of atheists and free-thinkers who delight in attacking Christians.
Here are the comments and my response. My original statements and responses are in italics.
“ ‘They demean our cherished religious beliefs and traditions as being concocted from a miasmic fabric of ancient myths and medieval superstitions.’ hmmm, since Christians don’t agree on the basics of their religion, it seems that your ‘cherished religious beliefs and traditions’ are no more important to you folks than they are to me, an atheist.”
Response: That is a serious misinterpretation of the facts. There are nominal Christians who reject some of the major tenets of the Christian faith, but the Christian faithful (Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox) are united in their belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is the basic belief of the Christian faith.
“’How does nothing come from nothing?’ Physics explains it, and those laws are supported by observations. One has to ask, where did your god come from? If it can be “eternal”, why can’t the laws of physics? And can you show your god to be the creator? Plenty of other religions make the same baseless claim.”
Response: I remember when Stephen Hawking made that suggestion about the creative power of physics, but most of his fellow scientific theoreticians rejected that idea as absurd. Physics is the branch of science concerned with the nature and properties of matter and energy. Physics tries to describe matter and energy, but it neither creates matter or energy nor explains how these things came to be. As one philosopher described the problem, ‘Science cannot answer the question why there is any world at all or any (scientific) laws at all. To answer these questions, or even to understand them properly, you must take an intellectual vantage point from outside the world and its laws, and thus outside of science. You need to look to philosophical argument, which goes deeper than anything mere physics can uncover.’
“‘Many atheists also consider the resurrection of Christ a myth, but few events in in any period of human history are so well documented by the testimony of witnesses and by its effect on the lives of people of that era.’ It is not well documented at all. In fact, the only thing you have is a book of claims about the events aka the bible. There are mentions of Christians by ancient writers, but not one mention about the supposed events. So, by your nonsense, my god is valid as your god as long as one can show worshippers. There are no ‘witnesses’. And if you want to claim that the effect on people makes a god real, then Islam is as valid as your religion, Hinduism, etc.etc.”
Response: This is perhaps the atheist’s strongest argument. Perhaps I should have qualified my original statement to read “few events in that period of human history.” The historical record for the first century is very thin, and there are few eyewitness accounts of even the most notable events occurring during that time. Nevertheless, the eyewitness testimonies provided in the New Testament are totally believable. The men who wrote these accounts did not hesitate to reveal their doubts, their fears, and their weaknesses. It was not a concocted tale. Read it with an open mind, and I believe you will be convinced. Another point, after the resurrection these apostles of Christ were inspired to go out and transform the world, and all but one died a martyr’s death. What changed them? And remember that Christianity originally spread as a gospel of love, only much later was it partially corrupted by its association with power and status. It seems that we often tend to do much better as the persecuted church. As for the other religions and their gods, I believe that all of them represent man’s search for truth, and I do not disparage them; but I am convinced that we Christians come far closer to the mark – even though ‘we do see through the glass darkly.’
“The shroud of turin is a fake, unless you wish to claim that somehow a nordic looking character was somehow “really” a Sephardic Jew in 1st century Palestine. Add to that the fact that bodies weren’t just laid out on a sheet with half of it folded over them, and you evidence vanishes.”
Response: This atheist obviously has not examined the evidence supporting the Shroud of Turin’s authenticity. There is nothing “Nordic looking” about the image on the shroud. He is somewhat taller than the typical Jew of that time, but his 5’10” height is not unusual. In appearance he looks Semitic, and hair and beard appear like that of an adult Jewish male of the 1st century. As for the burial cloth, its composition and arrangement seem to be in accord with what we know of burial practices at that time. The atheist does not address the proven fact that on that shroud is the bloody image of a scourged and crucified man. It is no medieval forgery. Many scientists have examined the shroud, but no one can explain how the image got on that cloth.
“‘I doubt not that atheists may live productive and ethical lives, but I compare them unfavorably to the people of faith who have created great works of art for God over the centuries and demonstrated love for their fellow men through countless acts of charity. Such selfless, agape love is not a mark of atheism.’ And more lies from a Christian who has to pretend how great he is and attack anyone else. People have done great works of art for all sorts of gods, so that fails too, as evidence. And works to help others just so you get magical presents in the afterlife is not love, that’s just greed. Happily, atheists can do good things without demanding payment.”
Response: I really hit a nerve with this one. The atheist considered my statement arrogant and condescending. I did not mean it to be so. Anyone, God believer or atheist, can do good works. Nevertheless, I cannot help but reflect on the many great works of faith over the centuries. The most notable universities in Europe and America were founded by Christians and were intended to propagate the Christian message. They may no longer play that role, but their origins must not be forgotten. And think about the many hospitals that were financed by various Christian denominations and continue to receive support from people of faith. Also, consider Christian outreach to the poor. I know not about motivations. Perhaps some persons do good works only in expectation of a heavenly reward, but I do not believe that to be true for most people. One thing is certain, it would be a much bleaker world if it were not for Christian charity
“Atheism is just a lack of a belief in a god or gods. You are an atheist too, just like me. It is our world view that is the difference.”
Response: I did not understand this statement. Yes, our world views are different. But I am no atheist. Without a belief in God, the world makes no sense to me whatever.
And may God bless you, my friend, even though you don’t believe in Him.
12 thoughts on “A Theistic Disputation”
My son Stuart Jordan submitted the following observation:
“Ten of the original twelve disciples of Jesus lost their lives in defense of their faith. These men all claimed to be eyewitnesses to the risen Savior.
“Throughout history, many individuals of many religions have laid down their lives for that which they honestly believed to be true, but it is doubtful that any sane group of people have ever intentionally sacrificed their lives for that which they knew to be false.”
One more note. The Clubschadenfreude author says that Christians don’t agree on supposed truths. I have attended a number of Evangelical Christian churches, and they all emphasize two truths. One, the divinity of Christ. Two, the most important commandments are to love God and to love your fellow man. That love should be for all your fellow men, not just Christians.
Clubschadenfreude, Thanks for telling me a little about yourself.. I should have discovered it on my own, but I must admit that I am a novice as regards the internet. I once worked with computers and even did some coding, but that was 50 years ago. The world has changed a lot since then, and I haven’t tried to keep up. Getting a bit lazy in my old age.
Actually, I appreciate your input. Perhaps we can learn a few things from each other.
Goodbye for now.
it would also be great if Chrisians would agree on your supposed “truths”. ” One thing is certain, it would be a much bleaker world if it were not for Christian charity”
and you try to ignore the horrors christians put on the world by their hate of anything different than them, including other Christians.
There are people who call themselves Christians who are not Christians, and they have done much harm and evil in God’s name The gospel of Christ is one of love, not hate, and that love should be for everyone, believers and non-believers. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You must have encountered a number of false Christians in your youth.
Edwin, Christians are always claiming that their version is the only right one and insisting that other Christians aren’t really Christians. None of you have yet to be able to show this at all. None of you can show that you are really baptized believers in Jesus as personal savior since none of you can do the miracles he promised his followers, Mark 16, John 14, James 5, etc.
The gospel is about a character that murders everyone who doesn’t agree with it in Revelation. That isn’t love. That’s an abusive tyrant.
So, Ed, is your bible wrong or lying when it shows that your god doesn’t love anyone who doesn’t agree with it?
I encounter Christians who don’t agree with you every day. You all make up your god in your image with what you want it to be.
What a sad interpretation of the Christian faith. I do not pretend to understand the Book of Revelation or Biblical prophecy in general, but the message of Jesus Christ is clear and consistent. Love God, and love your neighbor. And who is your neighbor? The story of the good Samaritan makes that plain for all to understand.
Ed, every Christian interprets the “Christian faith” differently. And as I noted, none of you can show you are even Christians, so it’s not my problem, it is yours. It’s not love if you think that anyone who disagrees with you deserves death or worse.
Christians pick and choose what they want to claim to understand and what they don’t, and unsurprisingly it is always those vicious ignorant bits that just “confound” them when they want to pretend their religion is ever so nice.
The message of Jesus Christ is not clear or consistent since Christians all come up with different versions of what jesus “really meant”.
As for samaritans, this jesus called a samaritan woman a dog. I’m not impressed. In the context of the bible, “neighbor” most often seems to mean those who agree with you. Everyone else can be enslaved and killed for their land.
We are involved in a useless circular argument.
I do not hate you. In your eyes that makes me to be a very poor representative of the Christian faith.
This is not a circular argument. This is me showing your claims are not true and you repeating them. It is quite useful since it demonstrates you have no evidence for your claims.
You have chosen to repeat things you cannot show are true. This is one of them “There are people who call themselves Christians who are not Christians, and they have done much harm and evil in God’s name The gospel of Christ is one of love, not hate, and that love should be for everyone, believers and non-believers. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You must have encountered a number of false Christians in your youth.”
you cannot show you are a Christian and those who disagree with you are not. This god hates some people, per Paul, and picks and choose who it allows to accept it and who it just damns for no reason. Romans 9 is quite clear on that.
Per the bible, this god hates anyone who dares disagree with it and then does its best to kill them. So, it seems your version of Christianity doesnt’ track with this god at all.
it is a “kinder gentler” version, but it is still based on your god needing to either kill or eternally torture anyone who it doesn’t like. That is not love at all, Ed. Being happily married for over 30 years, I know what love is.
and this still holds for you and every christian:
“None of you can show that you are really baptized believers in Jesus as personal savior since none of you can do the miracles he promised his followers, Mark 16, John 14, James 5, etc.”
the lack of ability to do the above makes you a very poor representative of the Christian faith, if I am to believe your bible. Should I believe it, Ed?
a circular argument: “Description of Begging the Question
Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of “reasoning” typically has the following form.
Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: “X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true.”
Some cases of question begging are fairly blatant, while others can be extremely subtle.
Examples of Begging the Question
Bill: “God must exist.”
Jill: “How do you know.”
Bill: “Because the Bible says so.”
Jill: “Why should I believe the Bible?”
Bill: “Because the Bible was written by God.”
“If such actions were not illegal, then they would not be prohibited by the law.”
“The belief in God is universal. After all, everyone believes in God.”
Interviewer: “Your resume looks impressive but I need another reference.”
Bill: “Jill can give me a good reference.”
Interviewer: “Good. But how do I know that Jill is trustworthy?”
Bill: “Certainly. I can vouch for her.”” nizkor website
Hmmm, if the author would have taken the time to look at my blog, he would have found out exactly “what” Club Schadenfreude is. It’s the name I invented for my blog, that’s it. Nothing sinister, nothing conspiratorial just a play on my love of noir movies and novels. He could have seen all that on my “the boss’s office” about page. There’s just me, a 50 something gal who was a Christian, and now stands against the false claims of all religions.
It seems that Christians do love to pretend that they can force their god to love me, and that I “have to take it”. Nope, not at all. I need no blessing from a being that is less than I am morally. But if our author wants to really bless someone, please do pray to your god to heal every amputee and burn victim. Your god promises to answer every prayer made in Jesus’ name with what is asked for, no exceptions, and to answer quickly.
As to this “Response: I did not understand this statement. Yes, our world views are different. But I am no atheist. Without a belief in God, the world makes no sense to me whatever.”
An atheist is anyone who doesn’t beleive in a god or gods. Thus, our author is an atheist when it comes to Zeus, Odin, Tezcatlipoca, Ra, etc. Just like I am. I’m also an atheist when it comes to his version of his god.
I’m guessing this post won’t be allowed to appear since it shows the author to be a bit lazy and still wrong.